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Author Topic: hydroxy booster  (Read 4961 times)

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njgt-1

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hydroxy booster
« on: July 16, 2008, 07:46:23 pm »

Quote
I can pick up the parts for my hydroxy booster

HUH ?  shocked
similar to a flux capacitor ?
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skymath

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 11:19:23 pm »

remember I mentioned it to you at Punch Buggy.  hydroxy is a colloquial name for HHO gas, which is released when you run electricity through water (electrolysis).  Basically, you build a relatively high efficiency electrolysis unit (there are open source plans online.  check out http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/ and http://www.waterfuelforall.com/ ) ..you could also buy one premade.  anyway, you run electricity from the car through the electrolyzer, which splits the water into hydrogen and oxygen gases.  You feed the gas mixture into your air intake.  The relatively small amount of hydrogen doesn't act as a fuel but rather as a catalyst to the gasoline burn, and causes your gas mixture to burn MUCH more efficiently.  You actually end up with almost zero HC in your exhaust, and it gives you better torque, causes your engine to run COOLER, and gives you somewhat better mpg. (anywhere from 10-100% depending)

from what I understand, at 1-2 liters per minute, you aren't generating enough hydroxy to have to adjust your timing.  if you make a higher-volume electrolyzer, they say you're supposed to retard your timing a bit.  I'm planning on building a Smack's booster, which is cheap and easy to build but not super efficient.  If it works as it's supposed to, I'm going to order a waterfuelforall booster and pass my Smack's booster on to someone else who's interested.

my only issue right now is that Jack suggested that I probably have poor compression...  using the hydroxy booster causes more of the gas to burn, yielding more power--but with weak compression would that damage the engine in any way?  since my bus is my only transportation, I can't risk hurting my engine.   what do you guys think?  basically if you were running 120 octane fuel in a vehicle with weak compression, would it hurt the engine?

..sky
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Beetleboi -Greg-

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 12:15:54 am »

Hey SKY keep an eye out for the FBI with all that hydroxy booster stuff,  they will think you are building a bus bomb.  8)
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njgt-1

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 06:23:50 am »

Sky,

Interesting..

I can see one possible problems not related to compression.
first you need to produce 20 amps to power it. I'd think that alone would put a
bit of a drag on your charging system. A vw alternator only produces around 55 or 60 amps ( I think ? ) would that alone cancel any extra power ? A battery produces a good bit of hydrogen gas when being charged thats why its very dangerous to charge one around any kind of ignition. Also how often would you have to fill it ? I'd think if it ran dry there would be a chance of explosion since thats what happens to a battery when you charge one without enough electrolyte. Its an interesting theory but I'd consider switching to a heavy duty alternator for more power to both the vehicle and the gas generator. Last of all would it produce enough gas to offset the drag on the charging system ? If you decide to build one I'd like to take a look, this could be an interesting project.
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skymath

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 12:28:37 pm »

Yeah, that's the other issue.  I wasn't sure how many amps my generator produces.   I may have to switch to a heavier-duty generator or alternator.  There's a guy on one of the forums who has one running in a type 1 but I'm not sure if he installed a different alternator.  I'll have to post something about it

Regarding water use, I forget the exact numbers but it's something like a liter of water per 15 hours of use.

let's see hydroxy takes up something like 1800 times the volume of the source water, so one liter of water would produce about 1800 liters of hydroxy.  If you're running the smack's booster which is rated at 1.7 L/min...say you get it to work more efficiently at 1.8 L/min to make the numbers nicer (and err on the side of conservativism), it would take 1000 minutes to use up all your water.  Dividing by sixty (minutes in an hour) yields a theoretical duration of 15.66 hours.  :)

of course, if your water level starts dropping below the top level of your electrodes, at some point it will retard your gas production, which is related to how much current you send through, and the efficiency of which is related to the total surface area of the electrodes.  In my case, in the bus I'd have enough room to have a relatively tall canister with the electrodes in the bottom, so I could store more solution and not have to top off too often.  The smack's booster design includes a water level indicator so you don't have to open the canister to see the water level.  if you use the proper electrolyte (and you'd be rather foolish to use something else), you'll be using either NaOH or KOH, which act as proper catalysts and as such don't get used up in the process of the electrolysis (some foolish people use NaCl, table salt, which works but forms poisonous chlorine gas as a byproduct), so you just top off your water with DISTILLED water once a week or so depending on how often you drive.  (using other types of water causes the impurities in the water to form a sludge in the solution, which can short your electrodes and possibly cause an explosion--bad idea, yet one which is surprisingly often tried.  research is essential!)

oh one last thing regarding the amount of electrical draw: if you were using the hydroxy directly as fuel, the electrical cost to generate it would be too high (the process too inefficient between the generator's inefficiencies and the electrolyzer's inefficiencies if you're using a regular "brute force" electrolyzer).   but with the relatively small amount of hydroxy (2L/min compared to the air intake of 1.6L engine at 2000rpm), the hydroxy acts as a catalyst to the gasoline burn rather than a fuel on its own, and thus dramatically increases the efficiency of the gasoline burn.  I think I mentioned before that one effect of using a hydroxy booster is that your hydrocarbon (HC) emissions drop to near zero--a plus for the environment :).   This means that more of your fuel is burning, and it's burning faster which means more of the force of the expansion gets transferred to the piston early in the burn cycle, for far more effective torque.  less overall heat is generated, so the effect is that the gas you are using, you are using far more efficiently in terms of mechanical output.  This makes up for the efficiency losses in generating the gas.

If you're interested there are some articles by JPL (the Jet Propulsion Laboratory) on hydrogen-assisted gasoline burning in ICEs that I could dig up for you

as an aside, the waterfuelforall booster is designed from the ground up to be maximally efficient (for a brute-force electrolyzer, which is the least efficient but easiest to make type) but requires a little more care in manufacture.  The smack's booster is reasonable in cost and difficulty of assembly, but is somewhat inefficient and will probably overheat after a couple of hours of continuous use.  the longest I drive in a single shot is generally less than two hours, so it's not too much a concern for me, and by the time I'm up to longer hauls I'm getting a waterfuelforall booster anyway.

I've done a lot of research on this so feel free to hit me up with questions.  The stuff I don't know is engine-specific stuff like how weak compression will affect things...

..sky
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njgt-1

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 03:35:20 pm »

Quote
If you're running the smack's booster which is rated at 1.7 L/min...say you get it to work more efficiently at 1.8 L/min to make the numbers nicer (and err on the side of conservativism), it would take 1000 minutes to use up all your water.  Dividing by sixty (minutes in an hour) yields a theoretical duration of 15.66 hours.  :)


OK you lost me in the cloud of math!

I'd have to see it and even then I'd wonder about the benefits vs drag on the charging system. I know lots of racers use NOX or nitrogen oxide as a catalyst also some turbo diesel trucks use a form of propane injection to also complete the burn of fuel. I don't doubt this device will produce hydrogen but I've got to question how much and at what cost to an already small engine. In the case of the first two large tanks under a good bit of pressure are required to "inject" the gas in sufficient quantities. With NOX there has to be additional gasoline added at the instant of injection or the engine can run lean and burn a piston. Now huge power increases are possible with the NOX system. Also since you are still burning gas as a hydrocarbon fuel I can't see how this would drop emissions that much. Propane powered vehicles emit very low levels of hydrocarbons plus o2 & water vapor but thats with no gasoline present.

The discussion about the drag on the charging system reminds me of several attempts I've read about to cool an air cooled engine using an electric fan setup.
this has been tried in both VW and Corvair engines over the years and the biggest drawback is how much power it takes vs. the resulting effect. In most cases the engine ran cool to a point but the fans draw on the charging system overcame any real benefits as the engine had to work harder trying to keep up with the alternator or generator.

I don't say its impossible but if it works you might be onto something! 
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braidmeister

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 04:23:35 pm »

The trick would be to try running HHO on a simple Briggs & Stratton engine & see if the theory can be proven by example. If so, then try applying it to the VW. My feelings are that if this was a viable solution, then people would be doing it all over the place & message boards would be flooded with success stories. I above all, would love to see this in action,  :icon_thumright: in a vehicle that could be driven from coast to coast without giving up any creature comforts or the need for exotic fuel solutions. I've seen the dude with the Escort & torch etc etc...  stoned# Like everything else like this in the world, they give you enough to get you excited & then leave you hangin!!!  &m&

In the meantime, there are things that can be done to an engine to increase it's efficiency, and economy. Take the early FI model VWs - they were much more fuel efficient than their 'metered leak' carburated predecessors, and that is with archaic L-Jetronic OPEN LOOP fuel injection. Modern fuel injection, that use variable TPS sensors, O2 sensors and MAP sensors are more efficient yet, and as my sig suggests, I am converting my '76 to Megasquirt FI to gain tunability, reliability, (parts availability) and above all else, increased fuel enconomy. Taking it one more step, a turbo  BO** can be added to the FI engine, increasing the volumetric efficiency of the engine, provided that you keep your foot out of the pedal  drive&& , boosting fuel economy even more.

Now, step back a second, and ask yourself how well your VW is tuned at the moment? Poorly adjusted valves, incorrect timing values, vacuum leaks and other factors can affect your overall mileage. That's where I would start 1st...as most of these tune-up items are free or cheap to do...There's nothing like a well tuned engine.
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skymath

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 04:33:57 pm »

there are quite a number of people online using hydroxy boosters.  there are videos on youtube of people using high efficiency electrolyzers which use wave harmonics to dissociate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms with low current, running a closed loop generator--electrolyzer setup, where the hydroxy is being generated by harmonic dissociation using low amps obtained from a generator run off the hydroxy :)

yeah, my intention is to FIRST get my engine optimally tuned, and then to install the hydroxy booster.  one benefit I'm very interested in is the reduction of the emissions
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6T5 square

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 05:39:27 pm »

I think I speak for a lot of us when I say... 

c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23 c23
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skymath

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Re: hydroxy booster
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 07:32:32 pm »

hehe yeah I sound like I know what I'm talking about huh? heheh those math tattoos go a long way... they're also good for intimidating people at poker (but only if I've got my game on...)

basically: use electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen.  feed those into the air intake.  the mix causes your gas to burn far more efficiently and so you extract more power from the same amount of gas, and it's enough more to make up for the energy used to generate the "hydroxy", or hydrogen-oxygen gas, plus a little bit more...which allows you to lean out your fuel mixture and save on gasoline without sacrificing any power.  plus your engine runs cooler and has way less emissions

but if you have FI with O_2 sensors, you have to use some electronics to fake out your O_2 sensor, otherwise it'll think your mix is too lean cause of the higher amount of O2 coming out, and dump in more gas to compensate, and you'll end up with lower mpg instead of higher.  mine's a carby engine, so I don't have to worry about that
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