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Author Topic: New engine spec help  (Read 4495 times)

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AxlFoley

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New engine spec help
« on: March 04, 2009, 10:09:33 am »

Hello

I am starting to put the spec together for my proposed engine, I?ll give you my history so you have an understanding of my abilities, I have never built an air cooled engine, although I have done a few head gaskets, cams, and engine transplants in Water cooled VW's so I know how to work a torque wrench, I also have a fair amount of tools.

I have a Bug lined up that is fairly solid and has a reliable 1600 engine, but I fancy building something a bit tasty for it, I would be starting with a stock block, and don?t really have the spare cash for massive carbs or expensive heads, but would still like something around the 1900cc is that possible?

Any help and advice greatly received.

Thanks

Mark
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njgt-1

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 08:44:54 pm »

Axl,

Quote
I have never built an air cooled engine, although I have done a few head gaskets, cams, and engine transplants in Water cooled VW's so I know how to work a torque wrench, I also have a fair amount of tools.

Sounds like he inside of an engine doesn't scare you. Just remember the air cooled variety is a different beast than your average inline 4. You are dealing with a magnesium alloy case, cast iron cylinders, aluminum heads and pistons. These engines cool via air but also by oil and are very sensitive to both compression ratio and air fuel ratio.

I'd suggest reading up as much as possible. I've got a couple of excellent books by a fellow Brit, Keith Seume also anything from Gene Berg including his catalogue.  Also check the Samba website and also the Shop Talk Forums, both are good sources of info and also this web site.

Quote
I would be starting with a stock block, and don?t really have the spare cash for massive carbs or expensive heads, but would still like something around the 1900cc is that possible?

Its possible but consider that you won't get full potential out of a 2Ltr. engine without better heads and at least a set of dual carbs. Its the old story if you make it bigger than you need to feed it as well as exhaust it, you don't want 1 component becoming the "bottle neck". If you build a 2ltr then a bigger set of carbs would be needed to feed it but you don't want to choke off the engine with stock size valves and finally a stock exhaust on such an engine just won't get the spent gasses out fast enough so you need a good header. Again I suggest careful research and planning since theres lots of choices, some good and some not so good, don't be afraid to ask questions on this forum or any other. We always have a trouble shooting & tech session at our meeting and begin by saying "the only dumb question is the one you didn't ask".
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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 09:13:25 pm »

Mark, Stick to the 1600, reliable and you can run the piss out of it with no problems.

Like Bob said, you can't do one thing to the engine without doing all the other things to make it run good, and thats a lot of $$$$ Or Pounds.
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AxlFoley

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2009, 03:37:45 am »

Hrrm, I see what you are saying, it may be an idea for me to build a stock 1600 as my first engine and see how that goes.

I spoke to a friend yesterday who has a spare block that is tacking up room in his garage, so that?s a start, I'll be investing in a parts washer soon, so I'll get that home and give it a wash down to check the condition.

How about this then for a starting spec;

Stock block
1641 pistons and barrels
Engle 110 cam
Stock Crank
Stock heads, possibly converted to unleaded spec (with a bit of porting)
Then top it off with a single Weber carb, 009 Bosch, blue coil

How does that sound?
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njgt-1

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2009, 06:25:40 am »

Quote
How about this then for a starting spec;

Stock block
1641 pistons and barrels
Engle 110 cam
Stock Crank
Stock heads, possibly converted to unleaded spec (with a bit of porting)
Then top it off with a single Weber carb, 009 Bosch, blue coil

Heres my thoughts..

Stock block - can't beat that! try to find a later case with dual pressure relief

1641 pistons and barrels if this is for your bus I'd stick with either stock 85.5s or go to 90.5s and make it a 1776 - the 87's are a bit thin and in a bus subjected to more heat since they have to work harder

Engle 110 cam again if this is for the bus try an engle 100 - you don't need high end rpm but you want the torque curve coming in at a lower rpm

Stock Crank this engine would live much longer with a counterweighted 69mm stock stroke crank - just stay away from cheaper cast cranks and try for a good forged unit or a good welded counter weight ( I've had great luck with Demello cranks ) the crank is the heart of any engine

Stock heads, possibly converted to unleaded spec (with a bit of porting) - Porting is great but ALL VW heads are already "Unleaded" don't let anybody sell you the old unleaded trick they came that way from the factory since day one!

Then top it off with a single Weber carb, 009 Bosch, blue coil - is that a weber progressive ? hard to tune, a better choice would be a set of Kadron - Solex duals or a single Weber IDF.

as we say around here - just my  2CENTS
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AxlFoley

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2009, 08:55:31 am »

Stock block - can't beat that! try to find a later case with dual pressure relief ? ok will do, any chance of a part number?

 if this is for your bus I'd stick with either stock 85.5s or go to 90.5s and make it a 1776 - the 87's are a bit thin and in a bus subjected to more heat since they have to work harder ? ok do they require machining to the case to fit?

 again if this is for the bus try an engle 100 - you don't need high end rpm but you want the torque curve coming in at a lower rpm - ok, I do prefere low down torque

 this engine would live much longer with a counterweighted 69mm stock stroke crank - just stay away from cheaper cast cranks and try for a good forged unit or a good welded counter weight ( I've had great luck with Demello cranks ) the crank is the heart of any engine

Stock heads, possibly converted to unleaded spec (with a bit of porting) - Porting is great but ALL VW heads are already "Unleaded" don't let anybody sell you the old unleaded trick they came that way from the factory since day one! ? Thanks for the info

Then top it off with a single Weber carb, 009 Bosch, blue coil - is that a weber progressive ? hard to tune, a better choice would be a set of Kadron - Solex duals or a single Weber IDF. ? What are the quality of Kadron and Solex carbs like? Do they keep in tune?

That?s the kind of advice I?m after thanks

Mark
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njgt-1

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2009, 10:20:09 am »

Quote
ok will do, any chance of a part number?

any case starting with an "A" usually this is a later case. Also consider a fuel injected case from a later beetle if you can find one, these have no flange for a fuel pump and you would have to rig up an electric one but thats no problem if done correctly. The fuel injected cases are made with more aluminum and are marked as "AS-21" as vs a stock case thats marked "AS-41". The extra alunimum in the alloy tends to make these cases a bit stronger.

 
Quote
ok do they require machining to the case to fit?

90.5s would require the case and heads to be opened up, not a big deal if the machine shop has done VW work. Think about it if you increase the size of a cylinder without making the outer diameter larger than you must remove material from the inside and make the cylinder weaker, this is what happens with "slip ins' 87mm & 88mm cylinders fit this category. 90.5s are the same thickness as a stock cylinder.

Quote
What are the quality of Kadron and Solex carbs like? Do they keep in tune?

The Kadrons would be my first choice, they are 40mm and can be jetted to match the size of the engine. I ran a set on my 72 Super ( thats 1302 across the pond! ) with a 1776 and almost never had to touch them. I rejetted & syncronized them when I built the engine and had no problems for many years. The small Solex kits that are out there only run a 32 - 34mm similar to the stock type 3 carbs and really are suited to a more stock engine. They run well but theres not as many options for them.

Hope this helps!

Just wondering did you get your screen name from Eddie Murphy "48 Hours" ? Great movie and one of his best!



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AxlFoley

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2009, 03:26:14 am »

Thanks for the help, another question, the block i may be having has been stripped, is there a way i can check that its salvagable, ie not worn in any way?

As for the screen name, yeah it is from Beverly hills cop, it was a chosen while very drunk back in my student days, i dont know why. lol
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njgt-1

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2009, 05:53:11 am »

Quote
As for the screen name, yeah it is from Beverly hills cop, it was a chosen while very drunk back in my student days, i dont know why. lol

My error! I'm thinking of "Reggie Hammon" yea, Beverly Hills Cop was a great movie, too bad he gave up that direction in comedy!

Quote
Thanks for the help, another question, the block i may be having has been stripped, is there a way i can check that its salvagable, ie not worn in any way?

With the case halves torqued to the proper spec, its possible for a machine shop to use a bore gauge to check the main bearing journals for being out of round. You can also examine the journals yourself and see if theres any ridges or "imprinting" of the bearing. If this is a slight condition then align boring can address this. These engines have a tendency to "pound out" the case or beat the journals into a slight oval, not good for oil pressure! The stock crank isn't counter weighted and is the biggest contributor to this along with a heavy right foot! Keep in mind if the case is more than .010 out you might be better off looking for one in better shape. Also after align boring you would need to get a set of bearings which are oversized by what was taken off the journals. Sometimes an aftermarket crank will also be "undersized" at the main bearings so a replacement set can be sized for both the journals and crank issues. I'd suggest this all be done by a machine shop who is familiar with air cooled VW engines, they could also supply you with the right bearings.

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AxlFoley

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2009, 06:15:43 am »

ok I see what you are saying, basically find a decent machine shop, drop the block off and ask them to give it a once over.

I have started to put my shopping list together! how about rockers and rods, is there any real need to go for uprated ones?

By the way, its my birthday in a few weeks, and I'm having a book on rebuilding VW engines, so I may stop asking so many questions then lol, until then you will just have to put up with me lol

Thanks

Mark
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njgt-1

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2009, 07:42:11 am »

Quote
ok I see what you are saying, basically find a decent machine shop, drop the block off and ask them to give it a once over.

you've got it! you will need at least 1 set of experienced eyes and a good VW machine shop is your best friend!

Quote
I have started to put my shopping list together! how about rockers and rods, is there any real need to go for uprated ones?

Nothing wrong with a set of stock rods, the vw versions are forged and very strong for what you are looking for. I use a scale and measure the weights of each rod then I file a small bit off each one until they are all close to the same weight. Theres places on a rod you can do this without hurting anything.

Rockers are another story, I've never used ratio rockers, just stock VW 1:1.1s. One good upgrade for any rockers would be a solid rocker shaft kit and better adjuster screws. I like the Gene Berg rocker shafts but these are a bit pricy, the adjuster screws that work best are called "Elephant foot adjusters". These are a foot that swivels with the rocker action and take the stress off the top of the valve. Stay away from the "captive ball" style, these have been known to have the ball tip fall out - Not a good thing! 

Quote
By the way, its my birthday in a few weeks, and I'm having a book on rebuilding VW engines, so I may stop asking so many questions then lol, until then you will just have to put up with me lol

Happy Birthday!  @72

Hey  don't be afraid to ask questions, nothing wrong with that!
One thing to be aware of is that theres lots of mis-information about VWs. Lots of parts that are sold as "improvements" actually do only one thing - take cash from your pocket! We see lots of things such as T-3 "cool tins" on a T-1 - they don't do a thing except make your engine run hotter! Filter pumps - thats a filter on the end of an oil pump - good idea?? nada! the filter doesn't really filter all the oil and its close proximity to the exhaust system can cause the oil to get hot! A better idea is a "full flow system ( again I prefer Gene Berg ) which requires some minor case machining but will go a long way in protecting an engine. Also the stock cooling system when all parts are present and operating is the best way to cool an engine.

Looks like you've got a ton of reading ahead!
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AxlFoley

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Re: New engine spec help
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2009, 08:09:20 am »

Yeah thats why I have asked so many questions on here, dont get me wrong I love my VW club, but they tend to pay for the work they have done where as I like the DIY approach, it drags me away from the TV!

Also I know what you mean about parts, there are so many on the market that just dont do any thing, I have learnt my lesson with buying cheep repro in the past, some times that dirty oily VW part will work beter than the shiny new repro one! I try and get as much from VW as I can, luckily I have a friend that works on the VW trade counter, so not only can he check part numbers he can get me trade prices!

yeah lots of reading, I did ask for the engine book for christmas, but i had Keith Sumes new cal look bok instead, an awesome read if you ever see it.
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